A Christian apologetic video called "10 INCREDIBLE BIBLE FACTS to blow your mind" was posted to the "Philosophy of Religion" G+ Group. Bible click-bait is not "Philosophy of Religion." But I took the time to respond anyways.
1: So what? Harry Potter sold a lot of books too. Doesn't make it true.
2: Lots of authors, but "the Bible does not contradict itself" Yes. It does. Lots. There are whole indices of the contradictions. http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
But even if it were, a cursory understanding of how the Bible was formed (by committee, from a much larger set of texts) shows that it could be just good editing, not good writing.
3: Again. So what? This is just false. Book of Mormon says that god said things too. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/the-book-of-mormon-is-the-word-of-god?lang=eng
4: What a cute legend.
5. We're going down-hill here. This is pretty wildly speculative and vague. I wrote a blog about how this sort of post-hoc rationality works. The prophecies of Dr. Seuss
http://www.atheistengineer.com/2015/06/the-of-dr-seuss.html
"Jesus is Coming Back Soon." This has been the Christian claim
6. The Bible is true?! LMFAO. Where are the four corners of the earth? Stop pretending a circle is the same as a sphere.
Wow. Look under the water and you can see rocky formations that resemble what's over the land.
You're doing science just like the Muslims do it!
https://twitter.com/AtheistEngineer/status/671157215210766336
Step 1: Look at what's real.
Step 2: Find places where the Bible can be interpreted to suggest those things.
7. Ha ha ha. So there's some facts which agree with history? I'll defer to the usual "Spider Man happens in New York, but it doesn't make Spider Man true."
The Biblical writings are "viable"? Might not be false isn't a very good basis.
8. Accurate to what?! Oh. The disagreements between different scribes are "minor" in the opinion of some biblical historians? The 31,000
9. Methamphetamine has also changed people's lives. People who use it are transformed. They become committed to methamphetamine. Does that make it true? The video goes on to cite a few anecdotes about people who were born and raised Christian, then happened to do good things anyways. Lots of people find Jesus at their lowest -- because that's when they're most vulnerable to indoctrination.
10. There's a corrupted Bible? God hasn't protected "his word" very well, eh? Imagine if that happened EARLY in the Bible's history. The result would be an unreliable Bible today!
Showing posts with label apologetics. Show all posts
Showing posts with label apologetics. Show all posts
Sunday, April 24, 2016
Thursday, April 14, 2016
Response to: Proof That The Bible Is True
So let's disassemble it point by point.
1. Written By Different Men Over 2000 Years
This got complicated in a hurry. I'm going to color-code it for you.
Green will be for lies or baseless speculation.
Red will be for fallacies.
Purple will be for non-sequiturs.
Green will be for lies or baseless speculation.
Red will be for fallacies.
Purple will be for non-sequiturs.
The Bible is a collection of 66 books which were written by about 40 men over a period of 1500 years or more. Most of these authors had never physically met but yet their message in what they wrote is structured, consistent, accurate, inter-related and perfectly unified throughout. Though these writers physically penned the 66 books, the individual writers, at the time of writing, had no idea that their message was eventually to be incorporated into one single Book, that we know today as being The Bible.All we need to is notice that the premise of this claim is laughably false. The volume of work by Christian apologetics necessary to "homogenize" the wildly inconsistent and inaccurate books of the bible show just how inconsistent it is. The wide range of beliefs held by disparate groups, all of whom consider themselves Christians reinforces this fact.
Interestingly (as we keep in mind the accuracy & consistency of their writings) these writers believed and claimed that they were writing or transmitting the very word of God – or that their writings were as a result of the inspiration of ONE single Supernatural Author – God Himself.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 – All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
But even if it were as consistent as the author of this blog claims, later authors clearly knew of earlier authors and shared a common religion with them. Consistency is not without plausible naturalistic explanation.
2. The Scientific Accuracy of the Bible
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ow my sides hurt.
I've converted the original article claims to numbers so that I might taunt them one by one.
Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the
principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before
scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:
- The Earth is round, not flat as once believed (Isaiah 40:22).
- Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
- Field of Gravity (Job 26:7).
- Biological importance of blood to life (Leviticus 17:11,12).
- The Bible refers to dinosaurs. Job 40:15 and Job 41:1 speak of two such creatures.
1. Isaiah 40:22 says nothing about a spherical earth. Indeed, it puts "God" above the earth the heavens like a curtain over it. If you understand basic geometry of a spherical earth, "above" is an irrelevant concept for a spherical earth. It ONLY makes sense for a flat earth.
Edit: original author implied that "God sits above the circle of the earth," a point long since refuted. http://www.crivoice.org/circle.html
2. Wow. Winds blow.
3. "He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing." has nothing to do with gravity as the author claimed. I'm sensing a trend here.
4. I think ancient people understood that if you let the blood out of something, it dies. This is not modern scientific discovery.
5. Or … it speaks of monsters. See how that works? It didn't describe fossils, it described non-existent creatures just like other fairy tales.
This whole claim doesn't even make sense. Why would survival imply truth?
2. Wow. Winds blow.
3. "He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing." has nothing to do with gravity as the author claimed. I'm sensing a trend here.
4. I think ancient people understood that if you let the blood out of something, it dies. This is not modern scientific discovery.
5. Or … it speaks of monsters. See how that works? It didn't describe fossils, it described non-existent creatures just like other fairy tales.
3. Over 100 Prophetic Accuracies About Jesus Christ
This is called a Gish Gallop, and since the author doesn't bother to lay them all out, I'll simply point out that the Jews sure don't think that's true, and the Torah is their book so they should know.
The one consistent theme of the Bible, is that from Genesis to Revelation, the Bible consistently refers and prophesies about Jesus Christ who ultimately is mankind’s Lord & Saviour. There are over 300 specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.
4. The Bible Is Endorsed by Jesus Christ
So we're to believe that Jesus endorsed a book which wouldn't exist for another 300 years after his death? LOL.
Matthew 5:17-18 – (Jesus speaking) “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”When Jesus was on earth at the time, only the Old Testament existed. Jesus read and quoted from the Old Testament. Therefore if the Bible was inaccurate or untrustworthy, Jesus would have not quoted the Old Testament. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, Christ overcame the devil’s temptation by responding with Scripture quoted from the Old Testament. This was a clear indication not only of the authority and trustworthiness of the Bible but also that Jesus Himself was willing to be obedient to do what The Bible teaches.First, need to demonstrate that:
READ Matthew 4:1-17
- Jesus never quoted anything which contained any falsehood
- Infallibility somehow provides a protective power against "devil temptation."
5. Its Survival
This whole claim doesn't even make sense. Why would survival imply truth?
The Bible starting from Genesis has survived for over 1500 years. No other book has been so consistently studied, bought or quoted by mankind. Its teachings are still relevant even after 1000 years, a clear proof that God’s word is authoritative and does not change. No other book has been loved or hated as the Bible but yet it still survives and remains the highest seller among all books.Yup. Meaningless fluff that has absolutely no relation to the alleged conclusion (the Bible is True). I suppose we're to believe that its longevity implies some sort of magical protection from Yahweh, but even if that were true, it wouldn't demonstrate that Yahweh authored it or endorses it.
Matthew 24:35 – Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
6. Archaeological Evidence
Sigh.
A number of archaeological and geographic evidences exist to prove the accuracy and historic truthfulness of the Bible. Archaeological discoveries have been made which verify the various Biblical stories and events mentioned in scripture.
Romans 1:20-21 – For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
This is the Composition / Division fallacy -- the belief that because some aspect of the Bible is true that this truthfulness somehow applies to the whole. Let's consider the following excerpt of mathematical equations I just made up.
- 2 + 2 = 4
- 2 + 2 = 4
- 2 + 2 = 4
- 2 + 2 = 4
- 7 + 7 = 12
- 2 + 2 = 4
- 2 + 2 = 4
We observe that nearly all of the equations are true, but it's not at all safe to assume that this applies to all of the equations.
7. Life Changing Power
For thousands of years, the Bible has changed countless lives and has provided a means by which mankind can know and understand who God is and what God says about every life situation that we face on this earth. The Bible also is one huge story about God’s relationship with man. The Bible speaks of God’s love and plan of salvation from sin through Jesus Christ. People of different backgrounds and beliefs can testify of the life changing experiences that God’s word has brought to their lives.Yup. Just more baseless speculation and dogmatic claims. No real substance. Even if the claims being made were true, it wouldn't demonstrate the truth of the Bible.
Hebrews 4:12-13 – For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
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Tuesday, February 16, 2016
Prophecy: On A Response to Islamic Apologetics

The following was written before reading the article:
Having discussed with several Islamic apologists, I have expectations for the nature of the alleged "evidence." Rather than evidence as I requested, I expect to find the following:- A single or a series of dogmatic, faith-based claims, likely coupled with a few select quotes from scripture.
- A description of how history or science (probably history given the title) can be interpreted to be consistent with that dogmatic claim.
- The conclusion that since the history / science is consistent with the scripture that the scripture represents prophecy which can only have come from direct revelation by god to the book's author. I think this twitter user is Muslim, so I expect that to be Mohammed.
I'm not sure how long it will take me to get around to reading the lengthy Muslim apologetic, so I will go ahead and post this for folks who would like to check out my prophecy for themselves.
Monday, January 4, 2016
Response to: "Existence of the God of the Bible"
Introduction
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I hate to give away the punchline, but it's something like this. |
Here it goes...
If that's the test for existence, you're already tilting the playing field strongly in theist's favor. You've eliminated a huge array of potential gods and lowered the burden of proof to just "better explanation than no god". Imagine if we applied that same low threshold to a murder trial. "The defendant is guilty if it seems more likely that he did it than didn't do it."Existence of The God of the Bible
This is only an introduction to the main arguments for God’s existence. Obviously, much more can and has been written. First, the question of evidence for God’s existence is not a matter of some evidence being for God’s existence and some being against. It is whether or not the existence of God explains all of the evidence better than the alternative (that, is, that there is no Being higher than us).
Second, we say that one’s own understanding of the concept of God is one strong piece of evidence. This is something which most people have no problem understanding even though most people also have a natural tendency to want to reject God (as I once did and all of us actually do by nature). This tendency shows that belief in God is not a matter of wishful thinking.I accept that the concept of "God" exists. That doesn't mean that the actual thing envisioned in the concept exists. I have a concept of Zeus and Poseidon and Ra and Harry Potter. Yet no reasonable person would suggest that my "own understanding of the concept of Harry Potter is one strong piece of evidence" for Harry Potter existing, would you?! This tendency does not even remotely show that "belief in God is not a matter of wishful thinking." And I don't even follow the "logic" which would imply to the author that it does.
Third, there is the fact that you or anything else exists, since, as a contingent being, your existence must ultimately have come from some Necessary Being.Huh? Is this a feeble attempt at the first cause argument? There are a great many well known problems with it which are commonly taught in Freshman level philosophy.
Fourth, there is the amazing intricacy and capabilities of even simple forms of life. For example, a common house-fly is a far more advanced flying machine than anything we have been able to design. To say that the emergence of such life did not require design, but only mindless natural forces operating over a vast period of time violates the principle of Occam’s Razor, which says that, all things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The naturalistic explanation can only be surmised, never observed.False. Evolution is a well established, relatively simple scientific theory that has vast explanatory powers for complex life. It describes how complex organisms form over time by a process of random mutations and natural selection. The fact that the author thinks evolution is too complicated does not invalidate an entire field of modern science. Evolution is so simple and effective that it is even used in engineering (genetic design algorithms).
But we constantly observe how the application of intelligence on matter produces complex items. Indeed, in the absence of efforts guided by intelligent purpose, the natural tendency of matter is to go from order to disorder (as anyone who never cleans their house will easily recognize!).This is tap-dancing near the second law of thermodynamics, which even Answers in Genesis lists in its "arguments to avoid" section. Simply put, the tendency of matter towards disorder only applies to closed systems. Since the sun provides energy to the Earth, we are NOT in a closed system, and the second law of thermodynamics does not apply.
Fifth, the dominant belief today that the universe ultimately consists only of mindless matter/energy in time cannot explain the existence of us as people and any of our knowledge, experience or values (including all ethics).Why not? It's clear that consciousness is a gradient -- from the simple consciousness of a fruit fly to mice, dolphins, gorillas, and humans. Knowledge resides in our brains, as every neuroscientist will tell you. Our brains are made of "mindless matter/energy". Your computer has "mindless energy" too yet it can appear to think.
Sixth, ethics can only be arbitrary unless there is a Higher Standard. The only reason good and evil are not arbitrary is because goodness is God’s Nature as The Perfect Being. Anything which contradicts or opposes this is evil. (I would add that the only reason God can truly be self-sufficient as a Person is because He is relational within His ow/n Being as multi-Personal. This shows the superiority of Christian Monotheism.)This is such a mess.
- First, it's not an argument for the existence of a god, but simply an insult to your opponent: those of us who don't believe a god exists. It's the age old "where do you get your morals if not from god?" taunt.
- Second, it shows a juvenile view of right and wrong. "Anything against my god is evil". And I suppose you're going to tell us what you think your god wants. And Islam will tell us what their god wants. And they're not the same. And that's where holy wars come from.
To assert that an ultimate "Higher Standard" determines right from wrong sets aside nuances of specific situations and the limitations of an individual's knowledge / information which all bear on the "arbitrary" judgement of right from wrong. And of course, each individual's values determine how that person will select the best among multiple good things or the least bad among multiple bad things
Even if one were to claim that all of our experience as human beings is only an illusion, this still wouldn’t eliminate the fact that we still exist as real subjects of the illusion! And, taken to its logical conclusion, the anti-Theistic alternative absurdly posits an empty universe of objects with no knowing subjects. In other words, your existence as a human person disproves the Materialism/Empiricism of Atheism. For example, unless we existed as more than physical chemistry, a person looking at their own brain chemistry could only be described as chemistry somehow viewing itself! This is the “reductio ad absurdum” of Materialism (also known as Naturalism, which is supported by the equally-flawed epistemology of Empiricism).This seems to be a straw-man (solipsism isn't atheism) followed by who knows what "empty universe of objects with no knowing subjects" is supposed to mean. So no, my existence as a human person does NOT disprove Materialism, Empiricism, or Atheism. Note also that materialism and empiricism are not atheism. Each one is a unique concept. As an electrical engineer, I see no problem or issue whatsoever with your "chemistry viewing itself" attempt at "reducto ad absurdum". It works just fine and in no way challenges materialism, naturalism, or empiricism.
Downhill Slope
As you'll see, the last couple paragraphs of the blog entry are basically insults to non-believers and preaching. It's crash and burn for this guy.
All of these things point to the necessary existence of The Creator God described in the Bible. They are not necessary proofs in the respect that God’s existence needs to be established by proof. God is not a theorem. He is The Ultimate Fact. [snort] In fact, even logic itself is not explainable without the existence of The One True God (as the way His Mind works and the way ours is supposed to work because we have been made in His likeness). So, God must exist or else we couldn’t prove anything.You've posited without evidence that your god is responsible for these things, then turned around and made the absurd assertion that their existence is evidence of your god. This is the logical equivalent of: "Mermaids make seashells so seashells prove the existence of mermaids."
I'll just ignore the baseless claim that "God is not a theorem. He is The Ultimate Fact". I'm sure you believe that's true, but your belief doesn't make it true.
Finally, you've wound yourself around the axle of logic with a Sye Ten Bruggencate style "you're not allowed to have logic unless you accept my god" argument. Next, you'll be saying "I don't do Bible study with atheists." It's patently absurd to everyone but believers who blindly accept your initial premise: that god is responsible for logic. You've not established that to be true, merely claimed it without the slightest shred of justification.
Thus, all of these “proofs” are not really proofs, [FINALLY, something I can agree with. Oops. I should finish the sentence … ] but “evidence after The Fact” of something which is above all proof: God’s inescapable existence. [awwwwwww. It started out so good] But most people “can’t handle the truth!” that God exists because they want to be the god of their own lives [Insult your opponent time?]. The Bible calls this our “sinful nature”, by which we are naturally-inclined to reject God. [Who cares what the Bible says, you haven't proven god exists yet!!] This is despite the most direct piece of evidence of all: the fact that all of us inevitably and inescapably know The One True God in our hearts, but suppress this knowledge. [LMAO]Calling this last bit a "fact" doesn't make it an actual fact. Rather, it's just a claim from your particular holy book and doctrine. As an atheist, I can say with confidence that it's wrong, and so is Paul when he says anyone who leaves Christianity wasn't a Christian to begin with.
Nevertheless, the author has gone off the rails from what started as a rational explanation for god's existence. He is now just spewing his personal dogma. Well, let's see what's next.
Many reading this will undoubtedly deny that you already know God exists, just as you will likely resist where all of the above evidence points. But that is simply you acting according to the basic characteristic of mankind, as the Bible alone explains it: because you were born as a member of a rebellious race of sinners. Only God can change this, but all of us are culpable for not seeking Him and asking Him to open our hearts, eyes and minds so that we can get to know Him and so that we can be saved and transformed. The Gospel found in the Bible explains this and has led millions to The Greatest Blessing possible: the peace and joy of knowing that I have been forgiven of my sins and that my Creator loves me with perfect love.That's silly. The author's argument is bad because the author's argument is bad. Trying to lay the blame for your bad argument at your reader's feet is just further embarrassing yourself. Your Bible was written millennia ago by anonymous authors you believe to be "divinely inspired" for no other reason than the church told you that's what it is. I reject that claim until adequate evidence is provided too.
Blah blah blah preaching.
I hope and pray that you will truly consider all of this and find the same Blessing which I found 32 years ago.You've wasted 32 years of your life praying to a god which doesn't exist. I hope you can escape this fallacious thinking some day, but I don't hold out much hope. You seem to be in pretty deep.
Sunday, November 29, 2015
The Holy Spirit told me God isn't real
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Read the Bible to find a God |
What is the Holy Spirit, and how can we know when it's talking to us?
I was going to share my personal opinions based on my experiences as a Christian, but that would only lead to charges that I'm wrong. Instead, I'll use some GotQuestions "answers" [Emphasis is my own]:
But how do we recognize the Spirit’s guidance? How do we discern between our own thoughts and His leading? After all, the Holy Spirit does not speak with audible words. Rather, He guides us through our own consciences (Romans 9:1) and other quiet, subtle ways.
One of the most important ways to recognize the Holy Spirit’s guidance is to be familiar with God’s Word. The Bible is the ultimate source of wisdom about how we should live (2 Timothy 3:16), and believers are to search the Scriptures, meditate on them, and commit them to memory (Ephesians 6:17).
So what do I mean when I say "The Holy Spirit sold me God isn't real"? I mean that:
As I reached the age of reason, I studied the Christian teachings I'd been taught as a child. I searched my soul to understand the ethics of the God / Jesus model I had been taught. Some things became clear:
- It's knowledge of the Bible that emerged from my conscience,
- This knowledge was revealed to me over the course of months or years of routine study of the Bible as a believing Christian, and
- The revelation occurred as a series of smaller revelations, such that the entire faith was internally consistent at any one time.
- An loving and ethical God wouldn't punish me for thinking for myself. God is loving and ethical, so it's safe to think for myself. (This was the key to freedom)
- A fair assessment of biblical stories must include all reasonable explanations
- One potential explanation is that the people who wrote the bible were sincere but deceived
- Another explanation is that they were insincere
- Another is that the message was corrupted or manipulated during canonization
- Finally, there's a chance that a god with the omni's wrote it.
- There are a great many serious problems with that final hypothesis::
- If a God wrote the Bible, it really ought to be in agreement with the emerging discoveries of science rather than conflicting with them.
- A just and loving God wouldn't chose to ban shellfish and permit slavery
- An intelligent god would understand that we are rational creatures and require reasonable evidence to accept a claim.
- There are many reasons to believe the Bible could be sincere yet false
- Even in the modern era, it's common for people to interpret events inaccurately
- Much of the Bible (especially OT) is known to be pre-literate Jewish oral tradition.
- Even many of the NT Books are of unknown authorship or are written generations after the alleged events.
- When I stopped to reflect on the communications I'd had with God / Jesus, I realized
- They were never specific enough to make a prediction of an outcome
- They never provided me with objective insight which I didn't already have.
- In these VERY REAL ways, my communications with "god" were not possible to distinguish from my own imagination.
Knowledge of God’s Word can help us to discern whether or not our desires come from the Holy Spirit. We must test our inclinations against Scripture—the Holy Spirit will never prod us to do anything contrary to God’s Word. If it conflicts with the Bible, then it is not from the Holy Spirit and should be ignored.But what is "God's Word"? Obviously, they think it's the Bible (which version)? Other people think it's the Quran or the Book of Mormon or some other book. But we all have seen how the Bible contradicts itself. A cursory review of the breadth of Christian denominations proves that one can read anything one wants into the Bible. It's like a Rorschach Test for believers. In any case, that's not a rational way to approach any test. Reasonable people recognize that the Bible they were handed was handled by men in the following chain from their hands:
- Store
- Delivery
- Printer
- Editor
- Many hundreds of years (in some cases)
- Translator
- Many hundreds of years
- Canon selection (allegedly divine, impossible to verify)
- Original Author (mostly anonymous)
- Source material (allegedly divine, impossible to verify)
... he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will” (Romans 8:26–27).In any case, the end result is that we know it's god or the holy spirit because you're studying scripture, or praying, it feels real, and it agrees with scripture -- something poetic and open to many interpretations. In talking to many Christians, it came across that God or the Holy Spirit were talking when things were suddenly clear and understandable. This was the measure Christians seem to tend actually to use.
As I reached the age of reason, I studied the Christian teachings I'd been taught as a child. I searched my soul to understand the ethics of the God / Jesus model I had been taught. Some things became clear:
- A just God wouldn't torture for disbelief due to missing evidence. In a just system, deeds must be the basis of reward and punishment, not beliefs.
- The Jesus I was taught to believe in was not hateful or discriminatory, and certainly didn't lash out for honest mistakes. The fire and brimstone preachers were caught up in their own personal anger and projecting it onto their version of god.
The clarity of these personal revelations was convincing evidence of their divinity to my Christian self. They made it possible for me to think openly about the strength of the evidence for the things I was taught to believe as a child. I didn't need to worry about torture because God is just and wouldn't torture without reasonable cause.
In short, a rational review of the reasons for by beliefs helped me recognize the circular logic and simple collection of human cognitive frailties which lead to and reinforce superstitious beliefs. Central to those are the power of community belief, and confirmation bias. But surely there must be evidence of god which stands up to scrutiny that accounts for these cognitive biases!
There wasn't. I looked and didn't find it in any of the places I expected to. Of course, I heard that "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence", but given the superstitious nature of early people, I couldn't shake the possibility that my religion was just as much a superstition as all the others.
I was atheist for decades before I really even knew the word, much less found authors or community. There wasn't a sudden switch, but a gradual increase in my doubt for god. Example after example showed that God was no more likely than other mythical creatures.
I was atheist for decades before I really even knew the word, much less found authors or community. There wasn't a sudden switch, but a gradual increase in my doubt for god. Example after example showed that God was no more likely than other mythical creatures.
- Intercessory Prayer (Prayer for others) [FAIL]
- Better health of believers [FAIL]
- Trustworthy clergy [FAIL]
- Miracles [FAIL]
- Firmament and heaven up in the sky [FAIL]
- Genetics or archeology to confirm any ancient books [FAIL]
If God is real, it has no detectable interaction with reality which I've been able to uncover. And belief without reason is unhealthy.
Maybe I'll meet a god some day. I doubt it, but if I do and it's ethical and benevolent, it will understand and accept my nonbelief.
Monday, January 5, 2015
A Response To: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for God
The Original Article
This was written in response to my dad, who as a Presbyterian Christian shared Eric Metaxas’s article from the Christmas WSJ Op-Ed page. Dad and I haven’t really discussed religion much since he found I’m an atheist. He is the treasurer and has served as a deacon in our church.
It’s behind a paywall, but here’s the link:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/eric-metaxas-science-increasingly-makes-the-case-for-god-1419544568
Eric Metaxas
Dec. 25, 2014 4:56 p.m. ET
My Response:
Dad,
I hope you're feeling better. We were all sad that we didn't get to see you and mom this weekend.
I also hope you wanted an honest and thoughtful response to the article you sent. I've taken an interest in philosophical debates over the last year or two, so I'm quite familiar with this particular style of god claim, as it's in fashion right now. I'm happy to have these discussions any time. Here's a sampling of my current thinking on this subject. I'm sharing my thoughts and opinions on the article, which aren't going to be supportive. Keep in mind that I'm criticizing the article here, not you. I'll do my best to be respectful to Mr. Metaxas, but I think he's been sloppy in his argument and in the claims he makes.
For starters, the headline is just plain wrong, and striking in its ignorance of the scientific method. It's common to have flashy headlines in the media, so it's not surprising. Nevertheless, science most certainly does not "Make the Case for God", and I'm not sure how to restructure the scientific process such that it actually could make such a case. Science deals with the construction of models which accurately predict the observable behavior of the natural world around us. To do this, science requires verifiable, repeatable experimentation to demonstrate the validity of clearly stated, falsifiable hypotheses. Theistic claims of a god generally place the god in a nebulous "super-natural" or "spiritual" realm which is firmly outside any ability to test and validate. By definition, this is outside the realm of science. Furthermore, as an intelligent agent, a god with "the omni's" (omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence) would not follow pre-definable orderly rules we seek to establish with science. As far as I know, there's no reasonable way to study any god claim using science.
In his article, Mr. Metaxas lays out a well known philosophical argument for the existence of god. The fact that the philosophical argument cites science as its evidence doesn't make it scientific. There is no "god hypothesis" presented, much less actually tested. The particular philosophical argument is in the category of "Fine Tuning" or Teleological arguments for the existence of God. The teleological argument on physical constants is one of the best arguments I've ever seen for the existence of God.
Hardly any cosmology scholars are making teleological claims of god's existence as the author seems to want his readers to think. This sort of claim comes from Christian (and Muslim) apologists. I've studied the teleological argument and I find it unconvincing for several reasons. I'll outline the four biggies here:
- At its core, it uses what's called an argument from ignorance fallacy. The argument from ignorance fallacy is when a debater (A) claims that his opponent (B) doesn't know the answer but Aclaims to know the answer, therefore A is right. In this case, the statement goes, "We don't know why these constants are balanced, but our religion claims God did it, so our religious dogma must be true." To see just how absurd this debate technique is, notice that the argument works equally well for any conceivable creation myth: a creator pixie; the Aboriginal Rainbow Serpent; or the classic modern parody, Flying Spaghetti Monster.
- Aside: The fact that there are aspects of the laws of nature that we don't yet understand never implies that any god did it. This is called "God of the Gaps". It's an attempt to spread the deity / deities into the ever-shrinking bits of the natural world we don't yet fully understand. We no longer need Ra, Apollo, or Helios to explain why the sun moves across the sky each day, or Zeus to explain lightning, or Poseidon to explain storms at sea. God of the gaps is asymptotically approaching zero.
- The teleological argument is often presented as an argument for the Christian or Muslim model of an intervening (or theistic) God. In the cosmological constant form, it's AT BEST, a argument for deism, not theism — an intelligent "first cause" with no demonstrable continuing affinity towards humanity, and certainly no "personal relationships" as the Christian and Muslim traditions teach.
- The argument fails to address the elementary "what created God?" Question. At it's core, this argument implies that the things around us (e.g. cosmological constants) appear to be "designed", so they must have a designer. But surely such a designer must be even more complex than the thing it designed. Why then do we not insist on a second designer to design that first designer? Apologists, and indeed most Christians I know, get around this by something called "special pleading" – the assertion that we should make a special case for God that they refuse to grant for the universe. Namely, that a complex, all-powerful god could simply exist without needing a cause. Yet for some reason, the universe and all the things within it cannot. Without special pleading, the intelligent creator deity requires his own creator, which requires a creator, and so on to infinity.
- The teleological generally starts from the foundational assumption that humans are the ultimate "goal" of the universe, a strikingly arrogant position in my opinion. This is a problem for all religious apologetics I've seen. As a human, it's tempting to to take this position. After all, it makes me feel special. But on the spatial and temporal scales of the universe, our entire species is insignificant, so we're left to assume that the universe was made just for us? Seems like an tremendous waste of effort -- particularly the meteors and inescapable eventual destruction of our sun.
Very few modern cosmologists consider these numbers evidence for God in the way that the article seems to suggest. There are several potential mechanisms whereby these constants could be "tuned" without an intelligence. The Multiverse is one. Very long time scales is another. There are not any fundamental problems with our understanding of the universe that ONLY a god could explain.
In my opinion, these sorts of articles, and apologetics in general, serves only to help believers feel more justified in their beliefs by giving the appearance of a solid foundation for religious beliefs where there is actually none to be had. The argument makes brilliant sense if you read it starting with the assumption that an intelligent creator god exists. But it doesn't actually provide any clear or compelling evidence that such a creator deity exists in the first place, much less indication of what properties such a deity would possess. So the honest truth is that:
- We don't (yet) know why the physical constants are balanced, but that doesn't mean a god did it.
- We have no way to determine how likely it is that they would be balanced, but even if it's extremely unlikely, that doesn't mean a god did it.
In the end, religion is based on faith. There is not, nor will there likely ever be any "proof". Until such a time, I remain very skeptical. But I'm always happy to discuss. I'd like to know if I'm wrong, and I'm not going to find that by navel gazing.
With Love,
- Me
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